Matt you did a great job in this debate. Still not sure if denial is just so weak that Thomas is the steel-man version of denial, or he if is just a very dishonest academic. Hope you do more of these.
I have volume two of the book “Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity” by Carlo Mattogno. Mattogno estimates on page 535 of this book that the deaths by year at Auschwitz-Birkenau are:
1940-1941 — 19,500
1942 — 48,500
1943 — 37,000
1944 — 30,000
1945 — 500
Total — 135,500
So those were Carlo Mattogno’s “sane” estimates of death per year *by all causes* at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
If I look at 1944, there are an estimated 30,000 deaths. Over the 365 days in that particular year, that’s an average of 82 deaths per day.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Crematorium #2 and #3 each had five 3-muffle furnaces. So that would be 15 muffles each, and a total of 30 muffles combined. And Crematorium 4 and 5 each had four 2-muffle furnaces. So that would be 8 muffles each, and a total of 16 muffles.
So the four Crematoria had a total of 46 muffles, correct?
So if the “sane” estimate is 82 deaths per day from all causes in 1944, and there were four crematoria with a total of 46 muffles, that would be 82/46 = 1.8 bodies processed per day, per muffle.
Do you agree…1.8 bodies per day, per muffle…averaged over all of 1944?
Mark Bahner here again, from Ron Unz's website. ;-) I've seen your first article on Ron Unz's website. Good job. Some thoughts, all about Auschwitz. That's all I've bothered to research, because once it's clear that approximately 1 million people were murdered at Auschwitz, the Holocaust Denial argument is utterly destroyed.
Possibly I've written this before but the key to Auschwitz is the Hungarian Jews. The arrived May-July 1944, and 400,000 of them. So if 75% of them were *not* immediately sent to the gas chambers and cremated, the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau would have exploded. (Note that Rudolf Hoess testified that the total population of Auschwitz-Birkenau (and Monowitz....I'm not sure about that?) never exceeded 140,000.
So the population of Auschwitz would have exceeded 500,000 in only 6-8 weeks, without killing 300,000.
Also, it would make no sense at all to transfer people unfit for work from Hungary to Auschwitz...and then *on to somewhere else*. The only rational reason--if mass extermination can be called rational--would be to murder them. Certainly, people unfit to work would not be sent from Hungary and then *on to labor camps in Germany*. Not after Germany spent the whole first part of the war clearing Jews *out* of Germany.
Finally, the only way to kill 300,000 people (children and women with them, and old people) in 6-8 weeks and have the bodies disappear is to murder them in gas chambers and then immediately cremate them. If bullets had been used, there would be gunfire comparable to a war.
Keep up the good work. If I can do anything to help, contact me here or at bahnermark@gmail.com .
A (long) comment I made at the Ron Unz Review website:
Consider this situation: You’re a juror in a criminal trial.
The defendants are accused of running gas chambers, crematoria, and burn pits at a train station, say, three decades previously. They are accused of killing 300,000 people, in fact…men, women, and children. The prosecutors say the guys must have done it, because the 300,000 people were known to have been forced onto the trains headed for that station with the alleged gas chambers, crematoria, and burn pits.
The Defense says that maybe the 300,000 people actually continued on to another station, because there was really no gas chamber at the train station…just crematoria. And the Defense says the burn pits were burning garbage.
The Prosecutor counters that the gas chambers absolutely did exist, because the people who ran the gas chambers (including the head of the operation, and a doctor who decided which people went to the gas chambers, and a person who gathered up the valuables of people sent to the gas chamber) admitted it existed. In fact, the guy gathering up the valuables insisted that the gas chambers existed, and even expressed frustration that anyone would ever say that the gas chambers did not exist!
Further, the Prosecutor points out that there is not one single record of those 300,000 people existing after disembarking from that train:
1) There is not one single record of school attendance at any school anywhere in the world for the 80,000 children under 12 years old among that 300,000.
2) There is not one single marriage record for any of those 80,000 children under 12 years old.
3) There is not one single instance of those 300,000 ever contacting anyone: family, friends in the hometown or elsewhere, and letting those people know that they went on to another station, and they’re all right.
4) In fact, there is not one single instance of those 300,000 even contacting direct family members who went into a separate line on the train platform…a line that we know involved people who didn’t get killed at that station on that particular arrival day.
4) There is not one single instance of any of those 300,000 ever being paid for a day of work.
5) There is not one single record of any of those 300,000 owning or occupying a dwelling.
6) There is not one single census record in any country after the day of arrival at that train station that includes any of those 300,000 people.
7) There is not one single record of any of the 300,000 dying some other place than at that train station.
The Prosecutor also points out:
8) We have photographs of some of the people right outside the alleged gas chambers, and we know some of their names, and we even have relatives who identify them in the photographs.
9) For every single train that carried those 300,000 people, we know how many people were on the train, and what the originating city was, and a recorded index number for every person who did not immediately go to the alleged gas chambers.
10) For example, for a town named Munkacs, we know that 28,589 people arrived on 9 trains, and that 4113 men and 4525 women did not go to the alleged gas chambers, and therefore we think 19,951 people (70 percent) did. And for a town named Oradea, we know that 27,715 people arrived on 9 trains, and 4,269 men and 4,707 women did not go to the alleged gas chambers, so we think 18,239 people (67 percent) did.
This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one: If you had that information…e.g. absolutely no record of any kind for any of those 300,000 people after they got to that train station…would you, as a juror, say, “The Defense has a good point…maybe all 300,000 went on to different train stations, and just left no records of any kind of their existence, for the rest of their lives.”
So far as I know, you haven't emailed me at my gmail address (last name first name, all one word).
You also haven't responded to anything I've written here. I am currently involved in a "mock civil trial" specifically about whether there were homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz (as you know, there were) and how many people were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau (as you know, approximately a million).
If you don't want to discuss Auschwitz by email, please at least acknowledge that you have read this comment.
Thanks!
Mark Bahner (gmail address is my last name and first name without periods or under-strikes)
Still no email from you...? (My email sort of crashed, so maybe I just missed something...)
ANYWAY...now that I think about it, let's just do this all on Substack. All I wanted was to give you some advice from my "civil mock trial" experience over at the Ron Unz Review website.
It looks like your next debate is postponed to an indefinite future? If so, then we have plenty of time.
I don't know if you know the movie, The Graduate, but I have one word for you, Benjamin...er, Matt:
Not "plastics." :-)
Auschwitz. Auschwitz is the key to exposing the Holocaust Denial lie. That's because with Auschwitz-Birkenau you have:
1) Rudolf Hoess (don't know how to do the Umlaut with my keyboard) writing an entire frickin' autobiography, telling why, where, when, and how many were murdered in gas chambers.
2) Nazi doctor Fritz Klein who admitted under oath he knew at Auschwitz that the women and children he was selecting were going to gas chambers.
3) Oskar Groening, the "Accountant of Auschwitz" who was convicted in Germany of 300,000 counts of accessory to murder, who not only admitted he saw the gas chambers, he spoke out *against* Holocaust denial before he died.
4) Reinhold Hanning, convicted in Germany of 170,000 counts of accessory to murder, who did not see the gas chambers, but knew they existed. (Because how else could so many people go into buildings and never come out.
5) Hungarian Jews: 437,000 deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau from May 15-July 13 (so pretty near camp liberation in January 1945)...with 300,000 to 400,000 being murdered in gas chambers.
6) Gypsy camp: approximately 4000 liquidated circa August 2, 1944. Again, very near the end of the war, and the exact date very well known.
7) Liquidation of the "Family Camp"...again, summer of 1944.
I'll be very busy today and tomorrow, so I won't be able to chat again. But I'd really like to trade information/references with you over the next weeks/months.
I have an idea that I'm testing over at the Ron Unz Review website. I want to have a "mock civil trial" specifically regarding Auschwitz...and even more specifically, sort of focusing on the Hungarian Jews deported from May-July in 1944.
Here is one comment about that "mock trial" idea:
John Wear writes on another posting:
My response: I will make comments for the Defense as needed.
Great. Just to go over the situation…this will be a mock *civil* trial, not a mock *criminal* trial.
I’m not a lawyer, but based on general knowledge and my *one* experience sitting on the jury of a civil trial, the biggest difference between the two is that a civil trial has a burden of proof of “a preponderance of evidence”. That is, if the juror(s) think that it is more likely than not (i.e. greater than a 50% chance) that one side is right, they should vote for that side. In contrast, a criminal trial requires proof “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
The most famous example of the difference is the O.J. Simpson criminal trial for murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, and the O.J. Simpson civil trial for “wrongful deaths” of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Simpson was found “not guilty” in the criminal trial (because the jurors apparently agreed there wasn’t proof “beyond a reasonable doubt”) but was found liable for wrongful deaths in the civil trial, and forced to pay damages to the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.
From the original posting, here is the Complaint:
OK, here is my *preliminary* complaint, as the Plaintiff’s lawyer. The defendants (Nazis), between 1942 and January 1945, engaged in at least 40,000 instances of:
1) Kidnapping (from Yugoslavia and Greece);
2) Wrongful transport of my clients out of their countries;
3) Wrongful imprisonment in Auschwitz;
4) Wrongful death;
5) Wrongful death specifically through use of Zyklon B in a homicidal gas chamber.
Note: I separated the complaint so the jury can decide whether there was any wrongful death at all, and specifically whether it was wrongful death by Zyklon B in a homicidal gas chamber.
My clients include (but are not limited to): Shlomo Venezia, a Sephardic Jew who was taken from Greece to Auschwitz with his two sisters and mother; the family of Reuven and Gershon Fogel and their mother, who were taken to Auschwitz in 1944; the family of Gerty Ackerman and her sister Wally and their mother, who were also taken from Hungary to Auschwitz in 1944; and 40,000 Jewish children who were taken from Hungary to Auschwitz from May to July 1944.
I'd really *like* for you and I (and every other person who knows what happened at Auschwitz) to team together against *every* "revisionist" in the world.
I think focusing on the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz will make it clear how ridiculous the "revisionist" claims are of no gas chambers and mass extermination at Auschwitz, because:
1) We're talking about 437,000 people, including men, women, and children,
2) It occurred from May-July 1944, so it was very close to the liberation of Auschwitz in 1945 (so no time for people to die of natural causes, or get shipped anywhere),
3) It's absolutely clear from the timing and the fact that women and children were shipped from Hungary to Auschwitz (Poland) that the only plausible reason to transport them was to murder them and burn their bodies.
What about it? Would you like to get in on this? (I'd actually really like to cut *down* on my time on this, but I feel that every single person in the world owes those poor people the acknowledgment that they were murdered...)
Matt you did a great job in this debate. Still not sure if denial is just so weak that Thomas is the steel-man version of denial, or he if is just a very dishonest academic. Hope you do more of these.
Thanks.
I have definitely gotten a lot better at this and am eager for more opponents.
Hi Matt,
I just posted these comments to John Wear on Ron Unz's website:
John,
Let’s start from the very beginning…a very good place to start. 😉
Way back on June 21st, in comment #983 in Ron Unz’s “Everything you know about WW2 is wrong”, you wrote:
https://www.unz.com/runz/why-everything-you-know-about-world-war-ii-is-wrong/?showcomments#comment-6021187
I have volume two of the book “Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity” by Carlo Mattogno. Mattogno estimates on page 535 of this book that the deaths by year at Auschwitz-Birkenau are:
1940-1941 — 19,500
1942 — 48,500
1943 — 37,000
1944 — 30,000
1945 — 500
Total — 135,500
So those were Carlo Mattogno’s “sane” estimates of death per year *by all causes* at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
If I look at 1944, there are an estimated 30,000 deaths. Over the 365 days in that particular year, that’s an average of 82 deaths per day.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Crematorium #2 and #3 each had five 3-muffle furnaces. So that would be 15 muffles each, and a total of 30 muffles combined. And Crematorium 4 and 5 each had four 2-muffle furnaces. So that would be 8 muffles each, and a total of 16 muffles.
So the four Crematoria had a total of 46 muffles, correct?
So if the “sane” estimate is 82 deaths per day from all causes in 1944, and there were four crematoria with a total of 46 muffles, that would be 82/46 = 1.8 bodies processed per day, per muffle.
Do you agree…1.8 bodies per day, per muffle…averaged over all of 1944?
Does that seem “sane” to you?
Hi Matt,
Mark Bahner here again, from Ron Unz's website. ;-) I've seen your first article on Ron Unz's website. Good job. Some thoughts, all about Auschwitz. That's all I've bothered to research, because once it's clear that approximately 1 million people were murdered at Auschwitz, the Holocaust Denial argument is utterly destroyed.
Possibly I've written this before but the key to Auschwitz is the Hungarian Jews. The arrived May-July 1944, and 400,000 of them. So if 75% of them were *not* immediately sent to the gas chambers and cremated, the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau would have exploded. (Note that Rudolf Hoess testified that the total population of Auschwitz-Birkenau (and Monowitz....I'm not sure about that?) never exceeded 140,000.
So the population of Auschwitz would have exceeded 500,000 in only 6-8 weeks, without killing 300,000.
Also, it would make no sense at all to transfer people unfit for work from Hungary to Auschwitz...and then *on to somewhere else*. The only rational reason--if mass extermination can be called rational--would be to murder them. Certainly, people unfit to work would not be sent from Hungary and then *on to labor camps in Germany*. Not after Germany spent the whole first part of the war clearing Jews *out* of Germany.
Finally, the only way to kill 300,000 people (children and women with them, and old people) in 6-8 weeks and have the bodies disappear is to murder them in gas chambers and then immediately cremate them. If bullets had been used, there would be gunfire comparable to a war.
Keep up the good work. If I can do anything to help, contact me here or at bahnermark@gmail.com .
Best wishes,
Mark
A (long) comment I made at the Ron Unz Review website:
Consider this situation: You’re a juror in a criminal trial.
The defendants are accused of running gas chambers, crematoria, and burn pits at a train station, say, three decades previously. They are accused of killing 300,000 people, in fact…men, women, and children. The prosecutors say the guys must have done it, because the 300,000 people were known to have been forced onto the trains headed for that station with the alleged gas chambers, crematoria, and burn pits.
The Defense says that maybe the 300,000 people actually continued on to another station, because there was really no gas chamber at the train station…just crematoria. And the Defense says the burn pits were burning garbage.
The Prosecutor counters that the gas chambers absolutely did exist, because the people who ran the gas chambers (including the head of the operation, and a doctor who decided which people went to the gas chambers, and a person who gathered up the valuables of people sent to the gas chamber) admitted it existed. In fact, the guy gathering up the valuables insisted that the gas chambers existed, and even expressed frustration that anyone would ever say that the gas chambers did not exist!
Further, the Prosecutor points out that there is not one single record of those 300,000 people existing after disembarking from that train:
1) There is not one single record of school attendance at any school anywhere in the world for the 80,000 children under 12 years old among that 300,000.
2) There is not one single marriage record for any of those 80,000 children under 12 years old.
3) There is not one single instance of those 300,000 ever contacting anyone: family, friends in the hometown or elsewhere, and letting those people know that they went on to another station, and they’re all right.
4) In fact, there is not one single instance of those 300,000 even contacting direct family members who went into a separate line on the train platform…a line that we know involved people who didn’t get killed at that station on that particular arrival day.
4) There is not one single instance of any of those 300,000 ever being paid for a day of work.
5) There is not one single record of any of those 300,000 owning or occupying a dwelling.
6) There is not one single census record in any country after the day of arrival at that train station that includes any of those 300,000 people.
7) There is not one single record of any of the 300,000 dying some other place than at that train station.
The Prosecutor also points out:
8) We have photographs of some of the people right outside the alleged gas chambers, and we know some of their names, and we even have relatives who identify them in the photographs.
9) For every single train that carried those 300,000 people, we know how many people were on the train, and what the originating city was, and a recorded index number for every person who did not immediately go to the alleged gas chambers.
10) For example, for a town named Munkacs, we know that 28,589 people arrived on 9 trains, and that 4113 men and 4525 women did not go to the alleged gas chambers, and therefore we think 19,951 people (70 percent) did. And for a town named Oradea, we know that 27,715 people arrived on 9 trains, and 4,269 men and 4,707 women did not go to the alleged gas chambers, so we think 18,239 people (67 percent) did.
This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one: If you had that information…e.g. absolutely no record of any kind for any of those 300,000 people after they got to that train station…would you, as a juror, say, “The Defense has a good point…maybe all 300,000 went on to different train stations, and just left no records of any kind of their existence, for the rest of their lives.”
?
Matt,
So far as I know, you haven't emailed me at my gmail address (last name first name, all one word).
You also haven't responded to anything I've written here. I am currently involved in a "mock civil trial" specifically about whether there were homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz (as you know, there were) and how many people were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau (as you know, approximately a million).
If you don't want to discuss Auschwitz by email, please at least acknowledge that you have read this comment.
Thanks!
Mark Bahner (gmail address is my last name and first name without periods or under-strikes)
Hey Mark I read your previous note but forgot to follow up; I'll email you straight away (as the English say) so I don't forget.
Hi Matt,
Still no email from you...? (My email sort of crashed, so maybe I just missed something...)
ANYWAY...now that I think about it, let's just do this all on Substack. All I wanted was to give you some advice from my "civil mock trial" experience over at the Ron Unz Review website.
It looks like your next debate is postponed to an indefinite future? If so, then we have plenty of time.
I don't know if you know the movie, The Graduate, but I have one word for you, Benjamin...er, Matt:
Not "plastics." :-)
Auschwitz. Auschwitz is the key to exposing the Holocaust Denial lie. That's because with Auschwitz-Birkenau you have:
1) Rudolf Hoess (don't know how to do the Umlaut with my keyboard) writing an entire frickin' autobiography, telling why, where, when, and how many were murdered in gas chambers.
2) Nazi doctor Fritz Klein who admitted under oath he knew at Auschwitz that the women and children he was selecting were going to gas chambers.
3) Oskar Groening, the "Accountant of Auschwitz" who was convicted in Germany of 300,000 counts of accessory to murder, who not only admitted he saw the gas chambers, he spoke out *against* Holocaust denial before he died.
4) Reinhold Hanning, convicted in Germany of 170,000 counts of accessory to murder, who did not see the gas chambers, but knew they existed. (Because how else could so many people go into buildings and never come out.
5) Hungarian Jews: 437,000 deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau from May 15-July 13 (so pretty near camp liberation in January 1945)...with 300,000 to 400,000 being murdered in gas chambers.
6) Gypsy camp: approximately 4000 liquidated circa August 2, 1944. Again, very near the end of the war, and the exact date very well known.
7) Liquidation of the "Family Camp"...again, summer of 1944.
I'll be very busy today and tomorrow, so I won't be able to chat again. But I'd really like to trade information/references with you over the next weeks/months.
Best wishes,
Mark
Hi Matt,
I have an idea that I'm testing over at the Ron Unz Review website. I want to have a "mock civil trial" specifically regarding Auschwitz...and even more specifically, sort of focusing on the Hungarian Jews deported from May-July in 1944.
Here is one comment about that "mock trial" idea:
John Wear writes on another posting:
My response: I will make comments for the Defense as needed.
Great. Just to go over the situation…this will be a mock *civil* trial, not a mock *criminal* trial.
I’m not a lawyer, but based on general knowledge and my *one* experience sitting on the jury of a civil trial, the biggest difference between the two is that a civil trial has a burden of proof of “a preponderance of evidence”. That is, if the juror(s) think that it is more likely than not (i.e. greater than a 50% chance) that one side is right, they should vote for that side. In contrast, a criminal trial requires proof “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
The most famous example of the difference is the O.J. Simpson criminal trial for murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, and the O.J. Simpson civil trial for “wrongful deaths” of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Simpson was found “not guilty” in the criminal trial (because the jurors apparently agreed there wasn’t proof “beyond a reasonable doubt”) but was found liable for wrongful deaths in the civil trial, and forced to pay damages to the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.
From the original posting, here is the Complaint:
OK, here is my *preliminary* complaint, as the Plaintiff’s lawyer. The defendants (Nazis), between 1942 and January 1945, engaged in at least 40,000 instances of:
1) Kidnapping (from Yugoslavia and Greece);
2) Wrongful transport of my clients out of their countries;
3) Wrongful imprisonment in Auschwitz;
4) Wrongful death;
5) Wrongful death specifically through use of Zyklon B in a homicidal gas chamber.
Note: I separated the complaint so the jury can decide whether there was any wrongful death at all, and specifically whether it was wrongful death by Zyklon B in a homicidal gas chamber.
My clients include (but are not limited to): Shlomo Venezia, a Sephardic Jew who was taken from Greece to Auschwitz with his two sisters and mother; the family of Reuven and Gershon Fogel and their mother, who were taken to Auschwitz in 1944; the family of Gerty Ackerman and her sister Wally and their mother, who were also taken from Hungary to Auschwitz in 1944; and 40,000 Jewish children who were taken from Hungary to Auschwitz from May to July 1944.
I'd really *like* for you and I (and every other person who knows what happened at Auschwitz) to team together against *every* "revisionist" in the world.
I think focusing on the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz will make it clear how ridiculous the "revisionist" claims are of no gas chambers and mass extermination at Auschwitz, because:
1) We're talking about 437,000 people, including men, women, and children,
2) It occurred from May-July 1944, so it was very close to the liberation of Auschwitz in 1945 (so no time for people to die of natural causes, or get shipped anywhere),
3) It's absolutely clear from the timing and the fact that women and children were shipped from Hungary to Auschwitz (Poland) that the only plausible reason to transport them was to murder them and burn their bodies.
What about it? Would you like to get in on this? (I'd actually really like to cut *down* on my time on this, but I feel that every single person in the world owes those poor people the acknowledgment that they were murdered...)
Are you gonna debate whatshisface Enoch?
I want to but he keeps dodging.
He seems like a smarmy type.
You should keep pushing.